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IE420Patient
10-20-2009, 02:39 PM
Pot advocates: Looser guidelines leave questions (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/18/national/w193042D27.DTL)

(10-19) 21:52 PDT San Francisco (AP) --

A new Obama administration policy loosening guidelines on federal prosecution of medical marijuana on Monday signaled to users that they had less to fear from federal agents but still left their suppliers to contend with a tangled mesh of state laws and regulations.

The Justice Department told federal prosecutors that targeting people who use or provide medical marijuana in strict compliance with state laws was not a good use of their time.

Marijuana advocates and patients called the memo an encouraging step forward from the strict anti-pot policies of the Bush administration. But many worried that the web of laws in the 14 states that allow medical marijuana use could still leave medical marijuana providers vulnerable to prosecution.

"Now we've got to figure out what these words actually mean," said Wayne Justmann, a longtime pro-pot activist in San Francisco who campaigned for the 1996 ballot measure that made California the first state to legalize medical marijuana.

The state stands out for the inconsistent enforcement of medical marijuana laws. There are as many as 800 storefront pot shops in Los Angeles just as some dispensary owners are starting decades-long sentences in federal prison. Some cities are trying to clamp down on medical marijuana, while others offer permits and collect taxes on dispensaries just like any other small business.

The confusion makes some medical marijuana backers skeptical that anyone can feel secure they are clearly in compliance with state law and safe from federal prosecution.

"There's just too much disagreement about what the law is," said Dale Gieringer, director of the California chapter of The National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. "The legality of almost anything is in doubt in California when it comes to dispensaries."

On Monday, for example, a state judge temporarily barred Los Angeles from enforcing a ban on medical marijuana clinics, ruling that the City Council failed to follow state law.

California also stands alone for the widespread presence of storefront dispensaries, but places to legally obtain pot are starting to sprout in other states. Colorado also has dispensaries, and Rhode Island and New Mexico are in the process of licensing providers.

Marijuana is effective in treating chronic pain and nausea, among other ailments, advocates say. In the past, federal agents have focused on busting dispensaries they said were using medical marijuana as a front for traditional drug-dealing and earning millions in the process. The Justice Department's latest memo suggests that approach will continue.

"We will not tolerate drug traffickers who hide behind claims of compliance with state law to mask activities that are clearly illegal," Attorney General Eric Holder said in a statement.

The Justice Department memo emphasizes that prosecutors have wide discretion in choosing which cases to pursue. In particular, the memo urges prosecutors to pursue marijuana cases which involve violence, the illegal use of firearms, selling pot to minors, money laundering or involvement in other crimes.

The states that allow some use of marijuana for medical purposes are Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, by the government's count.

But who exactly determines what compliance at the state level means is still a contentious question. California, for example, does not have an agency similar to its department of Alcoholic Beverage Control that focuses on marijuana. As a result, it has been up to the courts, city governments and local law enforcement to determine who is following the state law and who is not.

On Oct. 9, attorneys for the city of Fresno, Calif., obtained a restraining order to force the closure of nine pot clubs for violating zoning laws that require them to comply with both state and federal laws, an essentially impossible requirement since the U.S. government classifies pot as an illegal narcotic.

Assistant City Attorney Doug Sloan said the Justice memo would not inhibit Fresno's ongoing effort to keep out medical marijuana dispensaries.

"The memo expressly says this doesn't legalize marijuana," Sloan said. "Until federal law changes, and right now marijuana is a Class 1 controlled substance, it will still be prohibited."

In Colorado, where voters allowed the use of small amounts of marijuana for medical reasons, there are no statewide rules regulating the increasing numbers of dispensaries and cities have taken to regulating them on their own. For the new federal policy to have any effect, lawmakers need to create the regulations, Colorado Attorney General John Suthers said.

Patrons at a dispensary in San Francisco said they hoped the new policy would lift the stigma surrounding pot.

But they refused to give their names, saying they would not trust the federal government until marijuana was made completely legal.

___

Associated Press writers Greg Risling in Los Angeles, Tim Korte in Albuquerque and Devlin Barrett in Washington contributed to this report.

___

That's news of that day!

Cheers (& Cough),
IE420Patient

SantaCruzMts
10-20-2009, 05:38 PM
Obama says they will not go after " Collectives that are 100% compliant with State laws "...

Hmmmm??? I wonder out of the 1200 or so dispensaries we have here in California how many are actually collectives let alone 100% compliant

DPHil.Socrates
10-21-2009, 09:16 AM
What exactly is the difference between a collective and a dispensary? Is it just two different words for the same thing, or is there a distinction between the two similar to a not-for-profit organization vs a business?

I imagine if push comes to shove, all "dispensary" owners would simply claim to be a collective, and from what I understand, most large dispensaries in Cali are super-militant about keeping non-recommended people out of their buildings and try to be as by the book as possible.

Perhaps Chubbs could shed some light on this, since he just opened his own collective.

Chubbs
10-22-2009, 04:44 PM
What exactly is the difference between a collective and a dispensary? Is it just two different words for the same thing, or is there a distinction between the two similar to a not-for-profit organization vs a business?

I imagine if push comes to shove, all "dispensary" owners would simply claim to be a collective, and from what I understand, most large dispensaries in Cali are super-militant about keeping non-recommended people out of their buildings and try to be as by the book as possible.

Perhaps Chubbs could shed some light on this, since he just opened his own collective.

It comes down to teh legal form of the entity you are creating.

A dispensary is a "shop" that sells medical marijuana to patients that walk in the door and designate the shop as their primary caregiver.

Dispensaries are no longer allowed in Ca.

A collective is a group of people that get together and discuss/trade/learn about anything from baseball cards to stamps.

You file paperwork with the state forming the collective and then your bylaws, mission statement and membership agreement determine the type of collective you are.

NUGGETRY SD is a 100% non-profit collective. Once you join NUGGETRY SD you and I become semi equal (I say semi as I am also a director) collective members and we are then legally allowed to trade medical marijuana back and forth and you provide me with a donaition for my time/effort.

Hope that makes sense.

--Chubbs

DPHil.Socrates
10-22-2009, 05:44 PM
I understand.

Props to whatever lawyer came up with that bunch of rhetoric. He's my hero. :D

SantaCruzMts
10-28-2009, 09:00 PM
It comes down to teh legal form of the entity you are creating.

A dispensary is a "shop" that sells medical marijuana to patients that walk in the door and designate the shop as their primary caregiver.

Dispensaries are no longer allowed in Ca.

A collective is a group of people that get together and discuss/trade/learn about anything from baseball cards to stamps.

You file paperwork with the state forming the collective and then your bylaws, mission statement and membership agreement determine the type of collective you are.

NUGGETRY SD is a 100% non-profit collective. Once you join NUGGETRY SD you and I become semi equal (I say semi as I am also a director) collective members and we are then legally allowed to trade medical marijuana back and forth and you provide me with a donaition for my time/effort.

Hope that makes sense.

--Chubbs

It makes alot of sense.... That is the definition of of a collective as the State of California defines it. There will be money made that is over and above all expenses. Money which would be considered "profit" in a normal for profit business model. It is what the "Not For Profit Collective" does with said proceeds that will set them apart from the rest. For example Harborside in Oakland Ca spends a lot of money on free services for the community, Acupuncture, Massage, Growing Your Own Medicine Classes, and free medicine for seriously ill low income patients. Keep in mind I know nothing about Harborsides books or how much money is or is not made there , but the point is if you have a true Collective Model as Chubbs described and you take all the money that is made over and above "expenses" and "Taxes" and you put it back into the "Community", and towards other not for profit causes that say,:D might further the cause in general. Then you are doing the right thing as far as the state is concerned, and you might sleep better at night knowing that you are a true ambassador of the medical marijuana movement and not a old school dope dealer pretending to be a collective!!!!!!

Oh Yeah by the way it is my personal opinion that "Directors", "Owners", and "Employees" of Collectives should be " well paid ". For instance If I was the Director of a collective and my collective was doing the same amount of business as the gas station across the street I would expect to make the same amount of money as the owner of that gas station at least. I should in no way have to justify my income anymore then the guy who owns the gas station or the bank down the street. There are most likely more nights of lost sleep for the collective owner then there is for the banker or gas station owner!! So pay yourself well, pay your employees well, pay your taxes, pay your overhead, and take the rest and give back to the community and donate to further the Medical Marijuana cause and you are on the right path!!!!!!!

It is also my opinion that the Collectives that establish themselves NOW, and get a reputation for quality and being respected in the community will be the ones to really profit when the law changes and it becomes legal for all adults like Booze and Cigarettes. Trust me that day is coming. They will be first in line to become "Coffee Shops" , Clone Supply Stores, and so on!
Anybody agree or am I being over optimistic????

Chubbs
10-29-2009, 12:45 PM
It makes alot of sense.... That is the definition of of a collective as the State of California defines it. There will be money made that is over and above all expenses. Money which would be considered "profit" in a normal for profit business model. It is what the "Not For Profit Collective" does with said proceeds that will set them apart from the rest. For example Harborside in Oakland Ca spends a lot of money on free services for the community, Acupuncture, Massage, Growing Your Own Medicine Classes, and free medicine for seriously ill low income patients. Keep in mind I know nothing about Harborsides books or how much money is or is not made there , but the point is if you have a true Collective Model as Chubbs described and you take all the money that is made over and above "expenses" and "Taxes" and you put it back into the "Community", and towards other not for profit causes that say,:D might further the cause in general. Then you are doing the right thing as far as the state is concerned, and you might sleep better at night knowing that you are a true ambassador of the medical marijuana movement and not a old school dope dealer pretending to be a collective!!!!!!

Oh Yeah by the way it is my personal opinion that "Directors", "Owners", and "Employees" of Collectives should be " well paid ". For instance If I was the Director of a collective and my collective was doing the same amount of business as the gas station across the street I would expect to make the same amount of money as the owner of that gas station at least. I should in no way have to justify my income anymore then the guy who owns the gas station or the bank down the street. There are most likely more nights of lost sleep for the collective owner then there is for the banker or gas station owner!! So pay yourself well, pay your employees well, pay your taxes, pay your overhead, and take the rest and give back to the community and donate to further the Medical Marijuana cause and you are on the right path!!!!!!!

It is also my opinion that the Collectives that establish themselves NOW, and get a reputation for quality and being respected in the community will be the ones to really profit when the law changes and it becomes legal for all adults like Booze and Cigarettes. Trust me that day is coming. They will be first in line to become "Coffee Shops" , Clone Supply Stores, and so on!
Anybody agree or am I being over optimistic????

Agree 100%.

Plant your flag now as the time is coming "soon" for sure.

--Chubbs

Tebin
11-01-2009, 09:40 AM
I can not wait until the federal government takes a hint from all the people who have been telling them that regulation according to the constitution is a state responsibility and not a federal case.

JonnyGreen
12-10-2009, 09:06 AM
Agree 100%.

Plant your flag now as the time is coming "soon" for sure.

--Chubbs

Chubbs can you please explain how the authorities determine what is "profit" and what is simply high wages for the workers/owners or collectives? Clearly you are self employed in this business, and therefore you can designate your own wages?

For example (random easy numbers used) If you're revenue for the year was 100,000 dollars, all costs came to 25,000 and wages came to 25,000...you are left with 50,000 profit. But you could just say...oh wait no my salary is being increased to 75000 this year and that would leave 0 profit so you'd be doing nothing wrong? Or am I missing something obvious here...

DPHil.Socrates
12-13-2009, 09:28 AM
Chubbs can you please explain how the authorities determine what is "profit" and what is simply high wages for the workers/owners or collectives? Clearly you are self employed in this business, and therefore you can designate your own wages?

For example (random easy numbers used) If you're revenue for the year was 100,000 dollars, all costs came to 25,000 and wages came to 25,000...you are left with 50,000 profit. But you could just say...oh wait no my salary is being increased to 75000 this year and that would leave 0 profit so you'd be doing nothing wrong? Or am I missing something obvious here...

Precisely. I'm not sure what the leeway is regarding that. If there isn't one, they've got a lot of issues.